Tuesday, April 29, 2008
Meeting Tonight on 80th Street Extension
Kenosha News article (click here). Arguments are similar to public road crossing and extension of 122nd street across Kenosha County Bike Trail (always been in plan, benefits all residents....). Donate land to LAWCON (or LCWF--Land & Water Conservation Fund program--here) if you want to stop as that's what killed the public road crossing. At last night's Plan Commission meeting, the Village talked about not telling or forcing people what to do with their land. Should be an interesting meeting (public notice link and here).
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22 comments:
Seems to me that saving oaks and open space (as atributed to Mark Hujik) does benefit all Village residents. (One gold star for Mark!) A win-win for all concerned may be traffic lights. They would likley make the intersection safer and save habitat at the same time.
The thought of "not telling or forcing people" is frightening. That seems counter productive compared to open discussions with win-wins as a goal.
This project has been in the works for over 15 years. I am pretty sure that the public has been informed of this project multiple times.
As for win-win, ever go through that area when school is letting out? Someone is going to get hurt at that intersection if something is not done soon. Traffic lights could be put at 80th, but then all you are doing is moving the problem area to 82nd. Does not sound like much of a win-win to me... Nobody is "forcing" this decision - it is a common sense move that has been planned out long before Hujik built along that land.
Oh, and you can keep your gold star - I do not need one, I have common sense which makes up for it.
I talked with one of the residents who attended the meeting just a bit ago. People are very unhappy.
If they are unhappy because they didn't allow citizens comments, they have a right to be.
I think mit was that helpless feeling that you can't even talk about because they have made up their mind. I don't know what they were told because I wasn't there. But I remember what it was like with the bike trail crossing when we were told it would happen, then it wouldn't and we wouldn't have to deal with it anymore, then it was going to happen again, without any word to us affected residents that it was back on. In the end, nobody got what they wanted.
Lockwood's article is typical Kenosha News rubbish. She neglected to mention the vote by residents which affirmed the proposal by a huge margin. Rather, she focuses her article on two of the four who voted against it.
There will always be unhappy people when it comes to a 2-sided issue. Hence 2 sides. That doesn't excuse government (at any level) from making difficult decisions. There was just cause for the extension of 80th street (the safety of Lance Middle schoolers). The Village had the foresight to develop a plan years ago to address the traffic and safety at this intersection. The Village neglecting these issues would have been the worst option of three. They chose the option favorable to more residents. It embodies definitive democratic action.
Mike, I am again dissapointed in your not contacting me prior to attending Monday's meeting. You had said you'd make an attempt at meeting me prior to the next Village meeting you'd attend. Again, if you'd rather not deal with me, let me know. As an alternative, is there another person(s) I should see from Prairie Trails West to apologize for whomever from our development (you still haven't mentioned specifics) was unprofessional, please let me know asap...I appreciate the situation, and would like it remedied.
jroscioli@wi.rr.com
John, my decision to attend was last second as my kids activities were cancelled as I was driving home.
I thought you meant Village Board meetings as I wasn't aware that you attended Plan Commission meetings on a regular basis unless one of your items was on the agenda (do you have anything coming up?).
My attendance will be sporadic at best the next couple of months but may attend VB meeting this coming Monday, schedule permitting.
Mike,
I know how that is, we found out (the hard way) my 2 year-old daughter is allergic to penicillin. Spent the weekend at Children's hospital.
My attendance at meetings (other than the commissions I am volunteering for- school (hoping) and Kenosha Tourism and Visitor's) is virtually non-existent. I simply read the minutes when posted. I would only be attending to discuss some issues with you...nothing more. I feel something went on between the Orchard and PTW that shouldn't have...at least not in the manner which it did. It didn't properly represent my (or my partner's) opinions/methodology when it comes to dealing with neighbors, partners, etcetera. I feel very strongly about such, and want it remedied.
I also had some information regarding PPSD which you might find useful. I will be attending the next school commission meeting, and asking the pertinent questions there...but thought you would be interested.
Listened to the audio. In fairness, the Kenosha News article isn't completely clear. What is clear is that Hujik and Crawford did not mention alternate route down 82nd Street and that the alternate plan was proposed by Village and not by them.
I'm going to say this, and I'm sure it will upset some people, but after all my years in the Village, and witnessing how they operate, I have to say it. The trick here, and one the Village is very adept at, is they turn neighbor against neighbor. That way, they can throw up their hands and say, there's nothing we can do about it, the residents have spoken, and they come out like they tried to support both sides and smelling like roses. They did the same thing with the 26th and 28th Avenue residents against the Praire trails residents AFTER the Trails residents had successfully killed the crossing. Remember, you're dealing with politicians.
I know the article stinks. Why would that surprise you?
Some residents requested an alternate plan. I think it's actually worse than the original.
All the residents have known (or had information available to them) about the 80th street extension for many years. Hujik's home is less than 10 years old (sorry I don't know specifics) and this plan was well into the works when his family bought there.
I think Long Timer hits it right on the head and I encourage people to listen to the audio because that same point was brought up by two residents including Mrs. Crawford. Although Mr. Pollocoff claims differently.
Mike,
What's your take on this project and how would you have voted?
OK you asked. These are my feelings only. Personally, I would want to know a little more. 82nd Street is a no brainer and already has too much traffic. 82nd should be improved no matter what and could have been part of the overall improvement plan. Perhaps a less invasive, narrower 80th Street, and moving large, old trees to a small park created with land donated by Crawford is still a possibility. I know moving large trees is expensive and may not work but why not work out a compromise of some sort that makes everyone happy? I didn't like that 82nd Street was turned against 80th Street residents and I think that should have been handled completely differently, whether it was intended or not. This was reminiscent of how bike trail crossing was handled and I don't believe it is the right approach. Village should have focused on 80th Street only and left 82nd Street out of the picture as 80th improvements enhanced their area and if Village did nothing, it would be the same as is now. I don't think the intent should be to make a more heavily traveled road in that area. If anything, try and funnel people to the routes that already exist and serve that purpose that don't have residential housing. Maybe it's time to make neighborhoods more livable and less traveled instead of turning quiet neighborhoods into thoroughfares to help a few people get to work a few seconds faster. Granted, emergency services and such also need to be considered but it has been that way for many years so how important is it really considering the improved speed and abilities of our services? Just my thoughts after listening to audio but I didn't see any of plans as I couldn't make the meeting so don't know if alternatives are possible. Long winded but complex issue and certainly another situation where nobody wins. A second look with more possibilities may be warranted.
The neighbors asked for an alternative...82nd street was given as an option. Is it a better option? Probably not. It's an option nonetheless. The safety/traffic issues needed to be dealt with at some point, and this plan has been in place for many years. Where were these critics/opponents of the policies/plans at their conception? Nowhere to be found. Who was their? Those damned politicians making tough decisions again....only to be vilified 15 years later. There are plans in place for most, if not all, of Pleasant Prairie. People who purchase land, and don't look into said planning are doing so at their own peril. Ignorance is bliss, but it's no excuse.
By the way, the reason you are "dealing with politicians", is because they are willing to put themselves out there and make tough decisions in the public view. Are they always right, hell no. For us to cast stones is easy. It's even easier when hiding behind monikers such as old timer, new neighbor, and the ever popular anonymous.
Nobody was living in our subdivision when it was on paper and the plans changed a lot from first proposal so whether one was here now or 15 years ago is sometimes irrelevant. Look at your own The Orchards plan; it has changed from what was originally planned and proposed. Sometimes it matters when you don't have all the pieces in place and mislead. 80th Street asked for an alternative to not go through, they never mentioned 82nd Street. That was the Village and I won't say any more about that as I've said my peace. I just don't think it was handled as it should have been as they could have just dealt with 80th Street and left it at that.
As far as politicians and tough decisions, well, first they said yes, then they said no, then yes again with bike trail crossing so why would they do that if there weren't reasons? Matson looked at plans and asked if land would be rezoned and they were told no so you can go down to Village and find out one thing only to have it change later.
I agree about the hiding behind monikers. But, the way some have been treated in this village would give some pause.
I agree, things are always going to be adjusted. The Orchard has much less density planned now. The original plan called for 27+ 1/3acre parcels.
When it comes to decisions like The Orchard, the cases are made for both sides, and the Village Board (or whatever governing body) then makes decisions which they think are best for the future of that constituency. Do they always work out for the best? Not necessarily, but only hindsight is 20/20. I still think our officials have been very good over the past few decades.
I know for a fact there are some Village officials who wish the bike trail could be crossed in PTE. Which way is right or wrong? We'll never know.
By the way, I have been a witness to the "treatment" going both ways. It will always be the case that some feel "mistreated" by the governmental bodies. It will also always be the case that governmental officials are bashed by their constituency.
I'm sure some at the Village would love to see a hundred roads across the bike trail. Why not put road right down the middle of the bike trail? Police already drive cars down bike trail. Would make emergency services more efficient, right?. There are according to the Village 'over 40' roads that terminate without a cul-de-sac. Why not redo them all if safety is such an issue? Wouldn't it be cheaper and safer to have more emergency technicians and ambulances all over the Village? One can't risk away everything. The Emermgency bikr trail crossing is unneccessary and only helps Developer. You will not change my mind as no one has presented anything that says this will significantly improve response times.
As far as 'attacks' being both ways; listen to the last two audios on Carol Beach and 80th Street for comments from Board members. Some of their comments almost seem like they are talking down to people. I really believe Village officials would be much better off not responding to what they perceive as personal attacks (remember, these are frustrated people who think they are being personally attacked by the Boards actions or they wouldn't be there) and keep comments on point. This Board, and previous Boards and Commissions, have really struggled with this and their responses don't help at all in diffusing touchy and volatile situations. This is as bad as one Plan Commission member who likes to roll his eyes and shake his head when people are making comments he doesn’t agree with. Just my opinion after witnessing these types of situations many, many times over the years.
Mike,
I agree with your contention Village officials need to leave emotion at the door when possible. That isn't easy to do. The longer you are in office, the more often you are in a position to be involved in these emotional issues. I am not making excuses, I just know it'd be tough. I haven't noticed anyone rolling their eyes at plan meetings, but I've not attended nearly as many as you.
I also appreciate your sense of humor regarding a difficult situation with the bike trail. Don't want to change your mind regarding that, you brought up the comparison regarding that crossing. I could honestly care less if the Village allowed that or not.
If you want to see an awful traffic situation, go stand at the corner of Cooper Rd. and 80th street when Lance lets out. It will be worse now, as the weather allows for more kids to walk home. That bottle neck gets ugly. There isn't one correct answer, but the Village got this one right. I have an Aunt who has lived on Cooper Rd for more than 35 years, and the traffic needed to be addressed.
As to Carol Beach, I know they've been back and forth for many years on the right way to address the flooding. I am not informed at all on that situation, so wouldn't want to speculate. Once again, there isn't one solution...it stinks.
That's why extending 80th Street might make sense since it is already an issue with heavy traffic and safety but crossing bike trail just creates a new issue where one didn't exist. Big difference.
Totally agree. I understood the bike trail from a developer's point of view, but I know it's not necessity by any stretch of that word.
I will be in attendance for some of tonight's meeting. I assume it will be long and full of emotion, as the 80th St and Carol Beach resolutions are on the agenda. I also noticed several commission appointments are on there. I was a bit disappointed not being asked to participate in the school commission. Oh well, I'll keep trying.
Don't feel bad, they didn't ask me to serve on any commissions either. :-0
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